Saturday, March 17, 2007

The Best Possible Solution Part 2

There is a lot to read here. Please take your time, and let me know your thoughts. My desire is that we could investigate all of the evidence presented, and decide what the best possible explanation is from observable reality. Let us begin.

As we have recently discussed, it appears that the Cambrian Explosion is often used in order to illustrate a flaw in Darwinism. Although I thought I generally knew what it was, what I read shed more clarity on the issue. However, that wasn’t the only issue that seemed to cause many scientists to make a “Scientific Dissent from Darwinism.” I understand that some of what I suggest will not be new to many of you. However, contrary to what some have suggested in previous comments, it may be that the evidence presented against Darwinism is much greater than perceived. Consider:

Jonathon Wells, PHD, PHD

Graduated from University of California at Berkley in geology and physics, senior fellow at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture, doctorate in Religious Studies from Yale Graduate School, specialized in 19th Century controversies surrounding Darwin, received doctorate in molecular and cell biology from Berkley as a post-doctorate research biologist.

Darwinism: theory that all living creatures are modified descendants of a common ancestor that lived long ago.

Neo-Darwinism: Claims that these modifications are the result of natural selection acting on random genetic mutations.

False or Misleading Basic Icons of Evolution:

1) The Miller Experiment

(This experiment, in which Stanley Miller shot electricity through an atmosphere like the one on the primitive earth, created amino acids – the building blocks of life).

“Miller chose hydrogen-rich mixture of methane, ammonia, and water vapor, which was consistent with what many scientists thought back then. But scientists don’t believe that anymore. As a geophysicist with the Carnegie Institution said in the 1960s, ‘What is the evidence for a primitive methane-ammonia atmosphere on earth? The answer is that there is no evidence for it, but much against it.’ In the 1970s, Belgian biochemist Marcel Florkin was declaring that the concept behind Miller’s theory of the early atmosphere had been abandoned. Leading Origin-of-Life researchers, Klaus Dose and Sidney Fox, confirmed that Miller had used the wrong gas mixture. Science Magazine in 1995 said that experts now dismiss Miller’s Experiment because ‘the early atmosphere looked nothing like Miller-Urey simulation. The best hypothesis now is that there was very little hydrogen in the atmosphere because it would have escaped into space. Instead the atmosphere probably consisted of carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and water vapor. So my gripe is that textbooks still present the Miller Experiment as though it reflected the earth’s early environment, when most geochemists since the 1960s would say it was totally off.”

Q: What happens if you replay the experiment using an accurate atmosphere?

Wells:

“You do not get amino acid, that’s for sure. Some textbooks fudge by saying, well, even if you use realistic atmosphere, you will still get organic molecules, as if that solves the problem.” Although this sounds promising for life, “That’s what they sound like, but do you know what they are? Formaldehyde! Cyanide! They may be organic molecules, but in my lab at Berkley you couldn't even have a capped bottle of formaldehyde in the room, because the stuff is so toxic. You open the bottle and it fries proteins all over the place, just from the fumes. It kills embryos. The idea that using a realistic atmosphere gets you the first step in the origin of life is just laughable. Now, it’s true that a good organic chemist can turn formaldehyde and cyanide into biological molecules. But to suggest that formaldehyde and cyanide give you the right substrate for the origin of life – well, it’s just a joke. Do you know what you get? Embalming fluid!”

Q: What if someone finally manages to produce amino acids one day from a realistic atmosphere of the early earth – or say, a comet brought them in some way?

Wells:

“That would be the first step in an extremely complicated process. You would have to get the right number of the right kinds of amino acid to link up to create a protein molecule – that would still be along way from a living cell. Then you’d need dozens of protein molecules, again in the right sequence, to create a living cell. The odds against it are astonishing. The gap between nonliving chemicals and even the most primitive living organism is absolutely tremendous. The problem is, you can’t make a living cell. There’s not even any point in trying. No biologist in his right mind would think you can take a test tube with these molecules and turn them into a living cell.

Strobel: “In other words, if you want to create life, on top of the challenge of somehow generating the cellular components out of nonliving chemicals, you would have an even bigger problem of trying to put the ingredients together in the right way.”

Wells:

“The evidence is just not there. One popular theory was that RNA, a close relative of DNA, could have been a molecular cradle from which early cells developed. This RNA world hypothesis was heralded as a great possibility for a while. But nobody could demonstrate how RNA could have formed before living cells were around to make it, or how it could have survived under the conditions on the early earth. You have to build straw man upon straw man to get to the point where RNA is a viable first biomolecule. In short, it was a dead end, as all other theories have been.”

Journalist Gregg Easterbrook, “Science doesn’t have the slightest idea how life began. No generally accepted theory exists, and the steps leading from a barren primordial world to the fragile chemistry of life seem imponderable.”

2) Darwin’s Tree of Life

Wells:

“As an illustration of the fossil record, the Tree of Life is a dismal failure. But it is a good representation of Darwin’s theory. You see, he believed that if a population was exposed to one set of conditions, and another part of the population experienced other conditions, then natural selection could modify the two populations in different ways. Over time, one species could produce several varieties, and if these varieties continued to diverge, they would eventually become separate species – that’s why his drawing was in the pattern of a branching tree.”

Note: A key aspect of his theory was that natural selection would act, in his own words, ‘slowly by accumulating slight, successive, favorable variations’ and that ‘no great or sudden modifications’ were possible.

Although Darwin thought the fossil discoveries of the future would prove his theories, “fossil discoveries over the last hundred and fifty years have turned his tree upside down by showing the Cambrian Explosion was even more abrupt and extensive than scientists once thought.”

Cambrian Explosion:

The Cambrian was a geological period suggested to be a little more than 540 million years ago. The Cambrian Explosion, often called the Biological Big Bang, gave rise to the sudden appearance of “most of the major animal phyla that are still alive today, as well as some that are now extinct.”

The Record Shows:

“There were some jellyfish, sponges, and worms prior to the Cambrian, although there’s no evidence to support Darwin’s theory of a long history of gradual divergence. Then at the beginning of the Cambrian – boom! All of a sudden we see representatives of the arthropods, modern representatives of which are insects, crabs, and the like; echinoderms, which include modern starfish and sea urchins; chordates, which include modern vertebrates; and so forth. This is absolutely contrary to Darwin’s Tree of Life. These animals, which are so fundamentally different in their body plans, appear fully developed, all of a sudden, in what paleontologists have called the single most spectacular phenomenon of the fossil record.”

Q: How did these animals come onto the scene?

An analogy for football fans:

“Imagine yourself on one goal line of a football field. That line represents the first fossil, a microscopic, single-celled organism. Now start marching down the field. You pass the 20 yard line, 40 yard line, midfield, and you are approaching the other goal line. All you’ve seen this entire time are these microscopic, single-celled organisms. You come to the 16 yard line on the far end of the field, and now you see these sponges and maybe some jelly fish and worms. Then, in the space of a single stride, all these other forms of animals suddenly appear.”

The reason it turns Darwin’s Theory on its head, from a paleontologist in China: “…because the major groups of animals, instead of coming last, at the top of the tree – come first, when animals make their first appearance. This has uprooted Darwin’s tree.”

Although as a scientist, Wells always has to leave room for new scientific discovery, “The Cambrian explosion is too big to be masked by the flaws in the fossil record. As for Pre-Cambrian fossils being too tiny or soft to be preserved, we have microfossils of bacteria in rocks dating back more than 3 billion years. And there have been soft-bodied organisms from before the Cambrian that have been found in Australia. In fact, scientists have found soft-bodied animals in the Cambrian Explosion itself. Today evolutionists are turning to molecular evidence to try to show there was a common ancestor prior to the Cambrian.”

However, “You take a molecule that’s basic to life – say ribosomal RNA – and you examine it in a starfish, and ten you study its equivalent in a snail, a worm, and a frog. You’re looking for similarities, and if you make the assumption that they came from a common ancestor, then you can construct a theoretical evolutionary tree. But, there are too many problems with this. If you compare this molecular tree with a tree based on anatomy, you get a different tree. You can examine another molecule and come up with another tree altogether. In fact, if you give one molecule to two different laboratories, you can get two different trees. There’s no consistency, even with dating. Based on this, I think it’s reasonable for me, as a scientist, to say that maybe we should question our assumption that this common ancestor exists.”

Stephen C. Meyer:

“The fossils of the Cambrian Explosion absolutely cannot be explained by Darwinian Theory or even the by concept called ‘punctuated equilibrium,’ which was specifically formulated in an effort to explain away the embarrassing fossil record. When you look at the issue from the perspective of biological information, the best explanation is that an intelligence was responsible for this otherwise inexplicable phenomenon. New developments in embryology and developmental biology are telling us that DNA, as important as it is, is not the whole show. DNA provides some but not all of the information that’s needed to build a new organism with a novel form and function. You see, DNA builds proteins, but proteins have to be assembled into larger structures. There are different kinds of cells, and those cells have to be arranged into organs, and organs have to be arranged into overall body plans. According to Neo-Darwinism, new biological forms are created from mutations in DNA, with natural selection preserving and building on the favorable ones. But if DNA is only the part of the story, then you can mutate it indefinitely and you’ll never build a fundamentally new body architecture. So when you encounter the Cambrian Explosion, with its huge and sudden appearance of radically new body plans, you realize you need lots of new biological information. Some of it would be encoded for DNA – although how that occurs is still an insurmountable problem for Darwinists. But on top of that, WHERE DOES THE NEW INFORMATION COME FROM THAT’S NOT ATTRIBUTABLE TO DNA? How does hierarchical arrangements of cells, tissues, organs, and body plans develop? Darwinists don’t have an answer. It’s not even on their radar.”

“The puzzle of the Cambrian Explosion quickly falls into place once the possibility of a purposeful Creator is allowed as one of the explanatory options. Neo-Darwinism predicts a bottom-up pattern in which small differences in form between evolving organisms appear prior to large differences in form and body plan organization. Instead, however, fossils from the Cambrian explosion show a radically different ‘top-down’ pattern. Major differences in form and body plans appear first, with no simpler transitions before them. Later, minor variations arise within the framework of these separate and disparate body plans. This has simply stumped Neo-Darwinists. Not even the punctuated equilibrium idea works, for it can’t account for the ‘top-down’ phenomenon. In fact, punctuated equilibrium predicts a bottom up pattern; it just asserts that the increments of evolutionary change would be larger. If you postulate intelligent design, the ‘top down’ pattern makes sense.”

3) Haeckel’s Embryos

Images depicting embryos of fish, salamander, tortoise, chicken, hog, calf, rabbit, and human side-by-side at three stages of development. This supported Darwin’s assertion that the striking similarities between early embryos is “by far the strongest single class of facts” in favor of his theory that all organisms share a universal ancestor.

To sum up what Wells is about to say, it turns out that these images were faked. “He used the same woodcut to print embryos from different classes because he was so confident of his theory that he didn’t have to draw them separately. In other cases, he doctored the drawings to make them look more similar than they really are. At any rate, his drawings misrepresent the embryos.” This was first discovered in 1860s, when his colleagues accused him of fraud.

“When some biologists exposed this in an article a few years ago, the evolutionist Stephen Jay Gould of Harvard complained that this was nothing new. He had known about it for 20 years! It was no secret to the experts. Even Gould said textbook writers should be ashamed of the way the drawings had been mindlessly recycled for over a century. At least he was honest enough to call it was it was – ‘the academic equivalent of murder.’

Haeckel only showed a few of the seven vertebrate classes. “He used a salamander to represent amphibians instead of a frog, which looks very different. The ones he cherry-picked happened to look more similar than the ones he omitted. So he stacked the deck by picking representatives that came closer to fitting his idea – and then he went further by faking similarities.”

The most dramatic problem is that, “If you go back to the earlier stages, the embryos look far more different from each other. But he deliberately omits the earlier stages altogether. Remember, embryos are most similar in their early stages, this is evidence of common ancestry. He thought that the early stage showed what the common ancestor looked like – sort of like a fish. But embryologists talk about the developmental hourglass, which refers to the shape of an hourglass, with its width representing the measure of difference. You see, vertebrate embryos start out looking very different in the early cell division stages. The cell divisions in a mammal, for example, are radically different from those in any of the other classes. There’s no possible way you could mix them up. In fact, it’s extremely different within classes. The patterns are all over the place. Then at the midpoint – which is what Haeckel claimed in his drawings was the early stage – the embryos become more similar, though nowhere near as much as Haeckel claimed. Then they become very different again. Of course, some Darwinists try to get around Haeckel’s problems by changing their tune. They use evolutionary theory to try to explain why the differences in the embryos are there. They can get quite elaborate.”

“But that’s doing the same thing that the theory-savers were doing with the Cambrian explosion. What was supposed to be primary evidence for Darwin’s theory – the fossil or embryo evidence – turns out to be false, so they immediately say, well, we know the theory is true, so let’s use the theory to explain why the evidence doesn’t fit. But where’s the evidence for the theory? Why should I accept the theory as being true at all?”


4) Wing, Flipper, Leg, Hand

There obviously are similarities between bone structures in a bat’s wing, a porpoise’s flipper, a horse’s leg, and a human’s hand. These similarities are somehow the “proof” that they all share a common ancestor.

The Developmental Pathway – “If you have 2 different animals with similar features and you trace them back to the embryo, they would come from similar cells and processes. This happens to be mostly untrue. There are some frogs that develop like frogs and other frogs that develop like birds, but they all look pretty much the same when they come out the other end. They’re frogs. So the developmental pathway explanation is false.”

5) Genes

“A more common explanation nowadays is that the homologies come from similar genes. In other words, the reason 2 features are homologous in 2 different animals would be that they’re programmed by similar genes in the embryo. But it turns out this doesn’t work very well, either. We know some cases where you have similar features that come from different genes, but we have lots and lots of cases where we have similar genes that give rise to very different features.”

6) Humans and Apes Sharing 98% of Genes

“If you assume, as Neo-Darwinism does, that we are products of our genes, then you’re saying that the dramatic differences between us and chimpanzees are due to 2 percent of genes. The problem is that the so-called body building genes are in the 98%. The two percent of our genes that are different are really rather trivial genes that have little to do with anatomy. So the supposed similarity of human and chimp DNA is a problem for Neo-Darwinism right there. Second, it’s not surprising that when you look at 2 organisms that are similar anatomically, you often find they’re similar genetically. Not always; there’s a striking discordance with some organisms. But does this prove common ancestry? No. It’s just as compatible with common design as it is with common ancestry. A designer might very well decide to use common building materials to create different organisms, just as builders use the same materials (steel girders, rivets, and so forth) to build different bridges that end up looking very dissimilar from one another.”

Okay, I obviously can’t include everything written here. Just for people who aren’t aware, the archaeopteryx is not a missing link, Java man is a true member of the human family – not a half man/ape.

Evolutionary Biologist F. Clark Howell, “There is no encompassing theory of human evolution. Alas, there never really has been.”

“Every time an icon of evolution is discredited, Darwinists claim with religious zeal that it was never really the whole story in the first place and insist that new findings really do buttress macroevolution. New narratives are created; new stores are told. The theory of evolution, now unsupported by the original icon, is never questioned; instead, it’s used afresh to justify a redesigned model. For instance, in order to explain away fossil gaps, Gould proposed punctuated equilibrium. They suggested that radically new species somehow managed to develop rapidly among isolated populations, conveniently leaving behind no fossils to document the process. When these new creatures rejoined the larger, central populations, this resulted in the preserving of fossils that suggested the sudden appearance of new species. This model has been roundly criticized, and rightly so, for creating far more questions than answers.” - Philip E. Johnson, A Critique on Punctuated Equilibrium from Darwin on Trial

Wells: “I still leave room for some evolutionary processes in limited instances. But saying evolution works in some cases is far form showing that it accounts for everything. The evidence for Darwinism is not only grossly inadequate, it’s systematically distorted.”

Nobel Prize Winner, Arno Penzias regarding the Big Bang, “The best data we have are exactly what I would have predicted had I nothing to go on but the first 5 books of Moses, the Psalms, and the Bible as a whole.”

Sir Fred Hoyle – “A commonsense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed around with physics, as well as chemistry, and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature.”


Biochemistry:

“Time and time again, he found scientists describing complex interlocking biological systems and basically saying, ‘Isn’t it wonderful how natural selection put this together?’ The “how” was always missing.”

The Cell – “An incredible, intricate, Lilliputian world where a typical cell takes 10 million million atoms to build.”

“A single-cell organism as a high-tech factory, complete with artificial languages and their decoding systems, memory banks for information storage and retrieval, elegant control systems regulating the automated assembly of parts components, error fail-safe and proof-reading devices utilized for quality control, assembly processes involving the principle of prefabrication and modular construction…and a capacity not equaled in any of our own most advanced machines, for it would be capable of replicating its entire structure within a matter of a few hours.”

Michael J. Behe, PHD

Degree in Chemistry with honors from Drexel University and a doctorate in biochemistry at the University of Pennsylvania. Served on the Molecular Biochemistry Review Panel of the Division of Molecular and Cellular Biosciences at the National Science Foundation.

The Darwin Test:

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.”

THE IRREDUCIBLY COMPLEX:

Behe:

“You see, a system or a device is irreducibly complex if it has a number of different components that all work together to accomplish the task of the system, and if you were to remove one of the components, the system would no longer function. An irreducibly complex system is highly unlikely to be built piece-by-piece through Darwinian processes, because the system has to be fully present in order for it to function.

“The illustration I liked to use is a mousetrap. You can see the interdependence of the parts yourself. If you take away any of these parts, then it’s not like the mousetrap becomes half as efficient as it used to be or it only catches half of the many mice. Instead, it doesn’t catch ANY mice. It’s broken. It doesn’t work at all. So the mousetrap does a good job of illustrating how irreducibly complex biological systems defy a Darwinian explanation. Evolution can’t produce an irreducibly complex biological machine suddenly, all at once, because it’s much too complicated. The odds against that would be prohibitive. And you can’t produce it by successive, slight modification of a precursor system, because any precursor system would be missing a part and consequently couldn’t function. There would be no reason for it to exist. And natural selection chooses systems that ARE ALREADY WORKING.”

“If the simple device like the mousetrap requires design, what about the finely tuned machines of the cellular word? If evolution can’t adequately explain them, then scientists should be free to consider other alternatives.”

“Some components of biochemical machines can have other functions. But the issue remains – can you use numerous, slight, successive modifications to get from those other functions to where we are? The question for evolution is not whether you can take a mousetrap and use its parts for something else; it’s whether you can start with something else and make it into a mousetrap. The problem for evolutionists is to start with less complex system and build a more complex system. Even if every component could theoretically have useful function prior to its assembly into the mousetrap, you’d still have the problem of how the mousetrap became assembled.”

2 examples of Irreducible Complexity:

Flagellum:

Biological machine for propelling cells – the bacterial flagellum. The flagellum has a propeller made out of a protein called flagellin. The whole system works really well – the flagellum’s propeller can spin at ten thousand revolutions per minute.

“Not only that, but the propeller can stop spinning within a quarter turn and instantly start spinning in the other way at 10,000 rpms. Howard Berge of Harvard University called it the most efficient motor in the universe. It’s way beyond anything we can make, especially when you consider its size. Genetic studies have shown that between 30 and 35 proteins are needed to create a functional flagellum. I haven’t even begun to describe all of its complexities; we don’t even know the roles of all its proteins. But at a minimum you need at least three parts. Eliminate one of those parts and you don’t get a flagellum that only spins at five thousand rpms; you get a flagellum that simply doesn’t work at all. So it’s irreducibly complex – and a huge stumbling block to Darwinian theory.”

“The best that Darwinists have been able to muster is to say that the flagellum has components that look like the components of other systems that don’t’ have as many parts, so maybe somehow this other system had something to do with flagellum. Nobody knows where this subsystem came from in the first place, or how or why the subsystem may have turned into a flagellum. So, no, there’s no reasoned explanation anyone has been able to offer.”

Blood Clotting:

If your blood hadn’t clotted in the right place and in the right amount and at the right time, you would have bled to death. As it turns out, the system of blood clotting involves a highly choreographed cascade of 10 steps that use about 20 different molecular components. Without the whole system in place, it doesn’t work. To create a perfectly balanced blood-clotting system, clusters of protein components have to be inserted all at once. That rules out a gradualistic Darwinian approach and fits the hypothesis of an intelligent designer.”

Q: What about Gene Duplication? Why wouldn’t that work with blood clotting?

Behe:

“Sure, gene duplication happens. But what the fans of gene duplication rarely recognize is that when you get a duplication gene, you don’t get a new protein with new properties. You got the same protein as before. And that’s a problem. Darwinists don’t provide the details of how this can actually happen in the real world. But that’s not all. How can blood clotting develop over time, step by step, when in the meantime the animal has no effective way to stop from bleeding to death whenever it’s cut? And when you’ve only got part of a system in place, the system doesn’t work, so you’ve got the components sitting around doing nothing – and NATURAL SELECTION ONLY WORKS IF THERE IS SOMETHING USEFUL RIGHT NOW, not in the future.”

“In science we’re supposed to do experiments to show something is true. Nobody has ever done experiments to show how blood-clotting could have developed. Nobody has been able to show how a duplicated gene can develop some new function where it starts to make a new and irreducibly complex pathway.”

Once again, I can’t include all of the information for practical purposes. Just know that any hypothesis whatsoever, organizing on its own, whether it be take away parts, add parts, has not only been highly suspect, but cannot be provided without human intelligence involved somehow.

DNA:

Stephen C. Meyer, PHD

Director and Senior Fellow at Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture. Doctorate at Cambridge University, where he analyzed methodological issues in origin-of-life biology. For his Masters degree, also from Cambridge, he studied the history of molecular biology and evolutionary theory.

According to Bernd-Olaf Kuppers, “The problem of the origin of life is clearly basically equivalent to the problem of the origin of biological information.”

DNA: Repository for a digital code containing the instructions for telling the cell’s machinery how to build proteins.

Meyer on Prebiotic Soup: The chemicals that supposedly existed on the primitive Earth prior to life

“Even if they were right in order to create a living cell, you would also need information for how to arrange them in a very specific configuration in order to perform biological functions. Ever since the 1950s and 1960s, biologists have recognized that the cell’s critical functions are usually performed by proteins, and proteins are the product of assembly instructions stored in DNA.”

FROM DNA TO DESIGN:

“The origin of information in DNA – which is necessary for life to begin – is best explained by an intelligent cause rather than any other types of naturalistic causes that scientists typically use to explain biological phenomena. DNA is like a library. The organism accesses the information that it needs from DNA so it can build some of its critical components. To build one protein, you typically need 1,200 to 2,000 letters or bases – which is a lot of information.”

“This issue has caused ALL naturalistic accounts of the origin of life to break down, because it’s the critical and foundational question. If you can’t explain where information comes from, you haven’t explained life, because it’s the information that makes the molecules into something that actually functions. It is HIGHLY intuitive to think that there was Intelligence behind it.”

EVIDENCE FOR PREBIOTIC SOUP?

Q: Does evidence for prebiotic soup exist?

Meyer:

“If this prebioti soup had really existed, it would have been rich in amino acids. Therefore, there would have been a lot of nitrogen, because amino acids are nitrogenous. So when we examine the earliest sediments of the Earth, we should find large deposits of nitrogen-rich minerals. Those deposits have never been located. In fact, Jim Brooks wrote in 1985 that ‘the nitrogen content of early organic matter is relatively low – just .015 percent. From this we can be reasonably certain that there never was any substantial amount of ‘primitive soup’ on Earth when pre-Cambrian sediments were formed; if such a soup ever existed it was only for a brief period of time.”

Michael Denton, “Considering the way the prebiotic soup is referred to in so many discussions of the origin of life as an already established reality, it comes as something of a shock to realize that there is absolutely NO positive evidence for its existence.”

WHAT ABOUT RANDOM CHANCE:

Meyer:

“Virtually all of origin-of-life experts have utterly rejected the approach. Even so, the idea is still very much alive at the popular level. For many college students who speculate about these things, chance is still the hero. They think if you let amino acids randomly interact over millions of years, life is somehow going to emerge. But there is no merit to this. Even a simple protein molecule, or the gene to build that molecule, is so rich in information that the entire time since the Big Bang would not give you, as my colleague Bill Dembski likes to say, the probabilistic resources you would need to generate that molecule by chance.”

WHAT ABOUT NATURAL SELECTION:

Meyer:

“Darwinists admit that natural selection requires a self-replicating organism to work. Organisms reproduce, their offspring have variations, the ones that are better adapted to their environment survive better, and so those adaptations are preserved and passed on to the next generation. However, to have reproduction, there has to be cell division. And that PRESUPPOSES THE EXISTENCE OF INFORMATION-RICH DNA and proteins. But that’s the problem – those are the very things they’re trying to explain! In other words, you’ve got to have a self-replicating organism for Darwinian evolution to take place, but you can’t have a self-replicating organism until you have the information necessary in DNA, which is what you’re trying to explain in the first place.”

Q: What if replication first began in a much simpler way and then natural selection was able to take over? Some use RNA as their genetic material. RNA molecules are simpler than DNA, and they can also store information and even replicate it.

Meyer:

“The RNA molecule would need information to function, just as DNA would, and so we’re right back to the same problem of where the information came from. Also, for a single strand RNA to replicate, there must be an identical RNA molecule close by. To have a reasonable chance of having two identical RNA molecules of the right length would require a library of ten billion billion billion billion billion billion RNA molecules – and that effectively rules out any chance of origin of a primitive replicating system.”

In other words, you have to build straw man upon straw man.

WHAT ABOUT CHEMICAL AFFINITIES AND SELF-ORDERING?

Meyer:

“Salt crystals are a good illustration. Chemical forces of attraction cause sodium ions, Na+, to bond with chloride ions, Cl-, in order to form highly ordered patterns within a crystal of salt. You get a nice sequence of Na and Cl repeating over and over again. So, yes, there are lots of cases in chemistry where bonding affinities of different elements will explain the origin of their molecular structure. Kenyon and others hoped this would be the case for proteins and DNA. As scientists did experiments, they found that amino acids didn’t demonstrate these bonding affinities. Nothing that correlates to any of the known patterns of sequencing that we find in functional proteins.”

“What would happen if we could explain the sequencing in DNA and proteins as a result of self-organization properties? Wouldn’t we end up with something like a crystal of salt, where there’s merely a repetitive sequence? Consider the information in DNA, which is spelled out by the chemical alphabet (A,C,G,T). Imagine every time you had an A, it would automatically attract a G. You’d just have a repetitive sequence: A-G-A-G-A-G-A-G. Would that give you a gene that could produce a protein? Absolutely not. Self-organization wouldn’t yield a genetic message, only a repetitive mantra. To convey information, you need irregularity in sequencing. Open any book, you won’t see the word “the” repeating over and over and over. Instead, you have an irregular sequencing of letters. They convey information because they conform to a certain known independent pattern – that is, the rules of vocabulary and grammar. That’s what enables us to communicate – and that’s what needs to be explained in DNA. The four letters of its alphabet are so irregular while at the same time conforming to a functional requirement – that is, the correct arrangement of amino acids to create a working protein. Information requires variability, irregularity, and unpredictability – which is what information theorists call complexity – self-organization gives you repetitive, redundant structure, which is known as simple order. And complexity and order are categorical opposites.”

Dean Kenyon repudiated the conclusions of his own book, saying “we have not the slightest chance of chemical evolutionary origin for even the simplest of cells,” and that intelligent design, “made a great deal of sense, as it very closely matched the multiple discoveries in molecular biology.”

Intuition tells us that where there is information, there is Intelligence.

“When archeologists discovered the Rosetta stone, they didn’t think its inscriptions were the product of random chance or self-organizational processes. Obviously, the sequential arrangements of symbols was conveying information, and it was a reasonable assumption that intelligence created it. The same principle is true for DNA.”

“Naturalism cannot answer the fundamental problem of how to get from matter and energy to biological function without the infusion of information from an intelligence. Information transcends matter and energy. Information is the hallmark of a mind.”

Okay, there is a lot more, but I’m going to offer one more perspective.

KALAK COSMOLOGICAL ARGUMENT:

Nobel-Prize Winner Steven Weinberg:

“In the beginning there was an explosion. Not an explosion like those familiar on Earth, starting from a definite center and spreading out to engulf more and more of the circumambient air, but an explosion which occurred simultaneously everywhere, filling all space from the beginning with every particle of matter rushing apart from every other particle.”

William Lane Craig, PHD, THD

A member of nine professional societies, including the American Philosophical Association, the Science and Religion Forum, and a research professor at the Talbot School of Theology.

The argument goes as such:

Premise 1 – Whatever BEGINS to exist has a cause
Premise 2 – The Universe had a beginning
Conclusion – The Universe has a cause

I’m assuming that an objection that some of you may make here is in Premise 1. You may be tempted to ask, “Who caused God to come into existence?” Notice it doesn’t say that whatever exists – it says whatever BEGINS to exist. Christians posit that God never had a beginning. The question of God’s origin does not work when understanding Atemporal Eternality. Most people commonly define “Eternal” as endless time. However, another definition is TIMELESS. He is without time. There is no sense in asking what was “before God” – for there was no “before.” That is why Christianity has always suggested that God created time. The immediate question then is, how can one create without time? Gregory made an excellent point in a comment he made that essentially stated that we don’t have the language to describe such early phenomenon. This would make more sense for those of you who are familiar with theological language and anthropomorphism. If not, I would like to suggest that anyone hoping to raise a question about "who was before God" read more about the topic. Also, this shouldn’t be very difficult to accept. As Craig states (while reflecting on previous atheistic assumptions about the universe), “How can they possibly maintain that the universe can be eternal and uncaused, yet God cannot be timeless and uncaused?”

I’m assuming that none of you will combat Premise 1 and 2 – for 1 is intuitive, even David Hume asserted, "never asserted so absurd a proposition as that anything might ARISE without a cause." Premise 2 is nearly accepted by all scientists. Therefore, the Universe has a Cause. The question now is, what is that cause?

HOW CAN ANYONE EXPLAIN THE ORIGIN OF A FINITE UNIVERSE FROM A TIMELESS CAUSE?

Craig:

“The cause of the universe is a personal agent who has freedom of will.”

Now, there are several objections that were raised, that Craig dismisses quite satisfactorily. If you have a specific one you want to discuss, we can most certainly do that.

Stephen C. Meyer:

“The cause of the Universe must transcend matter, space, and time. Naturalism, by definition, denies the existence of any entity beyond the closed system of nature.” Therefore, what is the best possible solution?

“There is a form of practical reasoning that we use in life all the time. It says if we want to explain a phenomenon or event, we consider a whole range of hypotheses and infer to the one which, IF TRUE, would provide the best explanation. In other words, we do an exhaustive analysis of the possible explanations and keep adding information until only one explanation is left that can explain the whole range of data. The way you discriminate against between the competing hypotheses is to look at their explanatory power. This is what detectives do. This is what lawyers do in a court of law. Scientists use this approach. This model can enable us to achieve a high degree of practical certainty.”

ARGUMENT FROM IGNORANCE:

Premise: Scientists may not currently be able to find any explanation for how life began, but that doesn’t necessarily point toward a supernatural conclusion.

Meyer:

This is NOT an argument from ignorance. We’re not inferring design just because the naturalistic evolutionary theories all fail to explain information. We infer design because all those theories fail AND WE KNOW of another causal entity that is capable of producing information – namely, INTELLIGENCE.”

MIT’s Phillip Morrison:

“There is a kind of religion in science; it is the religion of a person who believes there is order and harmony in the Universe. Every event can be explained in a rationally way as the product of some previous event; every effect must have its cause; there is no First Cause….This religious faith of the scientist is violated by the discovery that the world had a beginning under conditions in which the known laws of physics are not valid, and as a product of forces or circumstances we cannot discover. When that happens, the scientist has lost control. If he really examined the implications, he would be traumatized.”

Craig:

“Because the cause of the universe transcends time and space, it cannot be a physical reality. Instead it must be nonphysical or immaterial. Well, there are only two types of things that can be timeless and immaterial. One would be abstract objects – like numbers or mathematical entities. However, abstract objects can’t cause anything to happen. The second kind of immaterial reality would be a MIND. A MIND can be a cause, and so it makes sense that the universe is the product of an unembodied mind that brought it into existence.”

FALSIFIABILITY:

Intelligent Design is not falsifiable. A theory cannot truly be scientific unless there are potential ways to prove it false through experiments of other means.

Behe:

“Yes, I know – but what’s really ironic is that intelligent design is routinely called unfalsifiable by the very people who are busy trying to falsify it! My claim is that there is NO unintelligent process that could produce the bacteria flagellum. To falsify that claim, all you would have to do would be to find one unintelligent process that could produce that system. On the other hand, Darwinists claim that SOME unintelligent process could produce the flagellum. To falsify that, you’d have to show that the system could not possibly have been created by any of a potentially infinite number of possible unintelligent processes. That’s impossible to do. So which claim is falsifiable? I’d say the claim for Intelligent Design.”

Darwinian Hypocrisy:

What about Darwinists who say, “Maybe it’s merely too early for us to come up with a road map of how these gradual changes developed. Someday we’ll better understand the flagellum, so have patience – in the end, science is going to figure it out.

Behe:

“You know, Darwinists always accuse folks in the Intelligent Design movement of making an argument from ignorance. Well, that’s a pure argument from ignorance! They're saying, ‘We have no idea how this could have happened, but let’s assume evolution somehow did it.’ You’ve heard the God-of-all-gaps – inserting God when you don’t have another explanation? Well this is evolution-of-the-gaps. Some scientists merely insert evolution when they don’t understand something.”

Collins:

“Let’s say you found some dinosaur bones. You would naturally consider them to be very strong evidence that dinosaurs lived in the past. Why? Because even though nobody has seen dinosaurs, we do have the experience of other animals leaving behind fossilized remains. So the dinosaur explanation is the natural extrapolation from our common experience. It makes sense.”

“Let’s say there was a dinosaur skeptic, however. He was trying to rationalize away the bones you found. Let’s suppose he claimed he could explain the bones by proposing that a dinosaur bone producing field simply caused them to materialize out of thin air. You’d say, ‘Wait a second – there are no known laws of physics that would allow that field to conjure up bones out of nothing. The skeptic would then say – ‘Aha, we just haven’t discovered these laws yet. We simply haven’t detected these fields yet. Give us more and I’m sure we will. My guess is that nothing would deter you from inferring that dinosaurs existed, because this would be a NATURAL EXTRAPOLATION from what you ALREADY KNOW. On the other hand, the skeptic needs to invent a whole new set of physical laws and a whole new set of mechanisms that are NOT a natural extrapolation from anything we know or have experienced.”

Therefore, of observable realities, the MIND is the natural extrapolation.

In terms of Information:

“Based on evidence, scientists assess each hypothesis on the basis of its ability to explain the evidence at hand. Typically the criterion is whether the explanation has causal power, which is the ability to produce the effect in question. In this case, the effect in question is information. On the basis of what we DO KNOW, only one causal power can produce the informational coding necessary – A MIND.”

Michael Shermer, editor of The Skeptical Inquirer, when scoffing at faith:

“The whole point of faith is to believe regardless of the evidence, which is the very antithesis of science.”

Now, based on everything we discussed, I don’t see how anyone can posit, with any intellectual honesty, that the best possible solution is Darwinism or some form of Naturalism. We haven’t even talked about Anthropic Fine-Tuning, Consciousness, or Astronomy which places the probability in dramatic favor of Intelligent Design as the best possible solution.

In order for me to believe in Darwinism and its underlying premise of naturalism, I would have to believe that:

1) Nothing produces everything
2) Non-life produces life
3) Randomness produces fine-tuning
4) Chaos produces information
5) Unconsciousness produces consciousness
6) Non-reason produces reason

When considering the problems with Darwinism and the lack of evidence, the origin of information, the uncaused, immaterial, timeless First Cause – are we still going to say that Darwinism or some Naturalistic explanation is the best possible solution?

Based on all the evidence, out of 2 explanations – I find only one observed entity is capable – A Mind. This fits in with the origin of information and certainly registers with what Christians have posited is the Nature of God – Uncaused, timeless, Intelligence.

He said, “Let there be light.”

Once again, the words of Noble-Winning Prize Physicist, Steven Weinberg:

“In the beginning there was an explosion. Not an explosion like those familiar on Earth, starting from a definite center and spreading out to engulf more and more of the circumambient air, but an explosion which occurred simultaneously everywhere, filling all space from the beginning with every particle of matter rushing apart from every other particle.” Within the tiniest split second, the temperature hit a hundred thousand degrees Centigrade. “This is so much hotter than in the center of even the hottest star, so hot, in fact, that none of the components in ordinary matter, molecules, or atoms, or even the nuclei of atoms, could have held together.” The matter rushing apart, he explained, consisted of such elementary particles as negatively charged electrons, positively charged positrons, and neutrinos, which lack both electrical charge and mass. Interestingly, there were also photons: “The Universe,” he said, “was filled with light.”

18 comments:

Anonymous said...

Good afternoon, Jason.

You have written about eighteen pages worth of material (counting both parts) but much of it is a waste of your time. This is simply because you have not attempted to examine works of mainstream biology and recycled defunct arguments from a semi-scientific minority view, and I am unsure why. It does a disservice to your not inconsiderable intellect.

So, I'll start at the beginning, and work my way to the end, although, once again, I recommend the talk origins newsgroup for far more extensive and knowledgable rebuttals. Whilst the majority of scientists can and have been wrong, paying them heed is a good first defence against quackery. The scientists who reject "macroevolution" (and I will return to this term later) are a tiny minority - one famous (and somewhat humourous) rebutal to a creationist initiative to show how many scienists doubt evolution was 'project steve', in short, the number of sciensits called steve (or stephan, stephanie, steven, etc.) who thought evolution was okay was many times greater than the sciensits (of any name) who doubted. As I have said before, the controversy is manufactured - you will not find it outside the USA, and not among people who have studied the field in depth. The only reason for this is I can find religious reasons - these people don't only doubt evolution, they directly suggest God as an alternative - thats not just bad science, that is pretty poor philosophy of religion too.

Anyway, let us begin.

"I decided to go to a source I knew would have intellectual credibility – Lee Strobel’s Case for a Creator. And may the rolling of eyes begin………………NOW!"

Duly done, I'm afraid. Strobel has been refuted so many times by so many people it is almost funny (almost, but not quite, considering intelligent young men like you keep getting hoodwinked.) As I have said, a far, far better use of your time would be to study impartial works (like biology textbooks, etc.) to get a proper understanding of the theory rather than the numerous straw men that creationists/I.D'ers erect.

The problem with Strobel is that his sample of scientists are the very small number (Behe, Demski, a couple of others) who deny evolution - it isn't a balanced account of scientific consensus or balanced opinion.

A final note before 'part two:'

"Either these men have devastatingly misinterpreted facts, or Macroevolution is on the brink of extinction; thus, no longer the best possible explanation. "

The short answer is they have, and I will show why, but further, Macroevolution isn't a term I am aware of being used extensively in the literature - cynically, it seems to be a divisor put between creationists between stuff that is demonstrably true ('microevolution'), and stuff which they can dance around the gaps ('macroevolution.')


So, lets start Wells and the Harvey/ Miller experiment. Let's start by pointing out this all a very elaborate red herring. It regards abiogenesis, not evolution per se. Indeed, what he (wells) is attacking is 50 year old research - modern abiogensis considers proteins (and amino acids) not even tagentially involved with the first replicators - it is, in very short, a straw man.

So, in very short, Wells is indeed in agreement in modern science - proteins would be very hard to create from scratch, it is why they aren't considered to have been used! (As a pure aside, terms like 'Darwinism' and 'Neodarwinism' simply do not exist in science - they are creationist inventions to give form to imaginary distinctions.)

So, I'll be a bit constructive now and talk about abiogenesis - even though, as I said, this isn't about evolution.

Firstly, RNA world tends to be favoured - Wells is also out of date, as we have discovered autocatalytic ribozymes (lengths of RNA which can speed up creation of more copies of themselves.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribozyme
(I apologise for using wikipedia and the internet, but I thought there would be little point citing books you cannot access, such as the few 1000 odd page biology books I can gain access to rather quickly.)

That, in short, gives you the first replicators, which ultimately means natural selection can occur. There are many, many other theories (clay theory, metabolism first, genes first, bubble theory and even panspermia.) But I personally go with this one, as I believe do the majority of those working in the field. At the end of the day, we don't know, but there certainly are means and mechanisms availible. There are other things which 'help' abiogenesis along, like lipids spontaneously forming a lipid bilayer, which is a basis of a modern cell, and so on, so on, and so forth. Hey, browse wikipedia if you don't believe me. ;) In short, whilst the Urey experiment has been used before, it is substantially out of date, and we have better answers.

"Although Darwin thought the fossil discoveries of the future would prove his theories, “fossil discoveries over the last hundred and fifty years have turned his tree upside down by showing the Cambrian Explosion was even more abrupt and extensive than scientists once thought."

This is dishonest - examples of gradual evolution have been shown to work by effectively darwinism means, although Wells is right, however, speciation mechanisms have moved on since Darwin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation

In short, once again we have an attack on outdated science (darwinism as opposed to modern evolutionary biology) and further an attempt to make it sound like evolution stands or falls by a single example (the Cambrian explosion) without reference to it being broadly correct- once again, poor science.

Especially note this bit:

"There were some jellyfish, sponges, and worms prior to the Cambrian, although there’s no evidence to support Darwin’s theory of a long history of gradual divergence."

Of course there isn't - Darwins speciation mechanisms have been considered incorrect for almost a hundred years! Where is the mention of contempory examples like Gould's punctated equillibrium model?

Indeed, observe the Wikipedia page on the issue (or just Google the Cambrian explosion.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion

You might not be able to understand what is being said when they are refering to various groups of organisms, but look at theories - why doens't Wells mention these, and instead of beating the dead horse of Darwinism - evolutionary biology has moved on since then. What about evidence of precursors to the phyla in the precambrian? What about all the possible theories of climatic change etc which could start rapid speciation events? I haven't actually inquired as to who Wells is, but I am getting a very unsavoury view of his intellectual honesty, really not helped by the following:

"But, there are too many problems with this. If you compare this molecular tree with a tree based on anatomy, you get a different tree. You can examine another molecule and come up with another tree altogether. In fact, if you give one molecule to two different laboratories, you can get two different trees. There’s no consistency, even with dating. Based on this, I think it’s reasonable for me, as a scientist, to say that maybe we should question our assumption that this common ancestor exists."

And his sources are where for his generalizations? Where is the sceintific consensus on this point? There are none, and there is none respectively. To even suggest that anatomical trees and biochemical trees should be the same is breathtakingly ignorant. They are not the same, it is why, for example, we don't find prokaryotic (bacterial) chemistry taking place in humans - except for certain structures in the cells we belive to have originated from endosybiotic bacteria (endosymbiont theory) The vast majority of life we observe (Plants, Fungi, Animals) use basically the same cellular chemistry, and share huge similarities in terms of cell structure, cell function and so forth. Well's criticism of taxonomy (organizing life) is wildly overblown - there is often dispute it taxonomy on which creatures (and especially which fossils) belong where, but that isn't remotely close to arguing the broad picture is correct - and it is. The only thing I can do is recommend you study biology, Jason, as books like this attempt to blind you with (bad) science - I can't really attempt to explain ideas of taxonomy (or cladistics) to you. As I said before, this controversy is a manufactured one by a very small (but very vocal) minority using (generally discredited) scientists as intellectual support. I find few more articulate ways of putting it than continuing my point by point rebuttal. Speaking of scientists, lets see what Meyer has to say for himself.

"The fossils of the Cambrian Explosion absolutely cannot be explained by Darwinian Theory or even the by concept called ‘punctuated equilibrium,’ which was specifically formulated in an effort to explain away the embarrassing fossil record."

This really is idiocy - science works of improving or changing models to better fit known facts - it is how scienstists work - Meyers only real problem with it, I suspect, is it fills various gaps in our understanding which he can't exploit. As we will see, he finds others, however.

"WHERE DOES THE NEW INFORMATION COME FROM THAT’S NOT ATTRIBUTABLE TO DNA? How does hierarchical arrangements of cells, tissues, organs, and body plans develop? Darwinists don’t have an answer. It’s not even on their radar."

That's because it isn't even part of the bloody theory!

That is precisely the question ALL of developmental biology has to answer. Unfortunately for Meyer, it seems that it is likely this 'information' is encoded in DNA - hierarchical arrangements are suspected to be due to various factors which cause differentiation (so 'turning cells' into whatever they are) it 'surprisingly' seems to be that the differences in these cells are due to certain genes being activated and deactivated - genetic links to various deformities would also suggest this - it is in short anyone with a basic understanding of the subject should know. Evidently Meyer isn't one of these people, or is being deliberately deceitful.

"The puzzle of the Cambrian Explosion quickly falls into place once the possibility of a purposeful Creator is allowed as one of the explanatory options. Neo-Darwinism predicts a bottom-up pattern in which small differences in form between evolving organisms appear prior to large differences in form and body plan organization. Instead, however, fossils from the Cambrian explosion show a radically different ‘top-down’ pattern. Major differences in form and body plans appear first, with no simpler transitions before them. Later, minor variations arise within the framework of these separate and disparate body plans. This has simply stumped Neo-Darwinists. Not even the punctuated equilibrium idea works, for it can’t account for the ‘top-down’ phenomenon. In fact, punctuated equilibrium predicts a bottom up pattern; it just asserts that the increments of evolutionary change would be larger. If you postulate intelligent design, the ‘top down’ pattern makes sense."

I've quoted this bit, not only because it is a load of pseudo-scientific nonsense, but it allows me to explain exactly why ID and creationism cannot be considered 'valid alternatives.'

First, lets start on the science. Contrary to Meyers bleating, the idea of major differences followed by smaller ones makes perfect sense - taxonomy relies upon this to date creature. A very simplistic reason is very simple creatures (unicellular, say) can diverge and only after a long series of divergences before forming a new (very large) group. An example is generally considered Eukaryota, which are thought to have diverged from prokaryota way back whence and true eukaryotes forming substantially later - the earlier steps in the time getting outcompeted and dying out as opposed to the later versions, and thus not spawning large phylogenic trees of their own. Meyers criticism isn't even wrong.

Now, the juicy bit. Meyer claims ID can explain a top down pattern - it can, it can explain top down, bottom up, upside down, roundabout patterns, or any other idea you care to name. The explanation? God (sorry, an intelligent designer) did it. This isn't scientific - how can we prove such a theory wrong? It isn't relevant, or falsifiable, or evidential, nor is it useful (how will ID explain how bacteria behave upon subjecting them to antibiotics?) It is God of the gaps of the very worst kind, as it will just incorporate 'evolutionist' theories to explain how, wheras the God bit explains any bits we don't know yet - and science shouldn't do that. It is why scientific bodies don't consider ID/Creationism science, why your courts make similar judgements, and last, but by no means least, why various emminent scientists like Gould and Dawkins ignore it - it is contemptible, and it doesn't deserve credibility which would be gained them them criticising - because there is nothing to criticise. ID by definiton doesn't have positive evidence in support - it a hypothesis beyond evidence. It is, in short, not science - and thus it isn't an explanation, no matter how many 'holes' people try and poke in evolution.

Even if (and it won't happen) evolution is 'proven wrong' (so we do indeed find bunnies in the pre-cambrian) ID or creationism will not take its place - they are simply not ideas in the purview of scientific enquiry.


Heankels embryos. (3)

The hypocrisy here is absolutely startling. Whilst this is indeed true, the attempt to show this is all wrong due to this is a wild fiction. The evidence for this is profoundly strong, even if embryos are not photographic replicas of each other. In short, once again we stumble on a common creationist tactic - finding one example and then using it disprove the rest of the (correct and valid) evidence of which the example was a part. In science, this would be censoriously bad conduct - but, as is sometimes snidely pointed out - these people aren't being scienstists, they are being demagogues. The 'elaborate' explanations are omitted, as ever, because once again the attack is on outdated science.

"But that’s doing the same thing that the theory-savers were doing with the Cambrian explosion. What was supposed to be primary evidence for Darwin’s theory – the fossil or embryo evidence – turns out to be false, so they immediately say, well, we know the theory is true, so let’s use the theory to explain why the evidence doesn’t fit. But where’s the evidence for the theory? Why should I accept the theory as being true at all?"

I'm not usually so vicious, but this is why:

Besides the cherry picked examples of intellectually dishonest scientist, the theory of evolution is broadly accurate and makes predictions which are affirmed - this is good cause for assuming it be generally correct, and thus not discarded out of hand. That is how science works - the obvious comparison between how 'creation science' (wonderful oxymoron) and ID works I have already made.

Number 4:

"The Developmental Pathway – “If you have 2 different animals with similar features and you trace them back to the embryo, they would come from similar cells and processes. This happens to be mostly untrue. There are some frogs that develop like frogs and other frogs that develop like birds, but they all look pretty much the same when they come out the other end. They’re frogs. So the developmental pathway explanation is false."

I wondered why this was barely intelligble - and then I remembered why, because it is attempting to shoehorn prior developmental criticisms into those about morphology, and it isn't even relevant - differing developmental pathways leading to the same result till show genetic similarity due to similarity in final morphological features - the fact there are differences in development does not suddenly make this similarity dissimilar. As has already been mentioned, developmental differences are overblown.

I confess I lost heart with rebutting 5) and 6) (for the first, they misrepresent genetics, and for the second they are again going off outdated science - besides the rampant theme of overgeneralization.)

Once again, quoting from the ID stable - and again I need mention what a tiny minority they are - the equivocation between evolution and Big bang, etc. whilst humourous, is again deceiful - the theories are not related.

"Time and time again, he found scientists describing complex interlocking biological systems and basically saying, ‘Isn’t it wonderful how natural selection put this together?’ The “how” was always missing."

Just bullshit - whoever said that needs to study their cellular biology. Thankfully for you, Jason, I specialize in it. And we go onto Behe, approximately the most well known (and probably only) cellular biologist who disputes evolution, and has been a toy for creationists ever since. Irreducible complexity, here we come.

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.”

Indeed it would, and these words will come back to haunt Behe, as we will see subsequently.

“The illustration I liked to use is a mousetrap. You can see the interdependence of the parts yourself. If you take away any of these parts, then it’s not like the mousetrap becomes half as efficient as it used to be or it only catches half of the many mice. Instead, it doesn’t catch ANY mice. It’s broken. It doesn’t work at all. So the mousetrap does a good job of illustrating how irreducibly complex biological systems defy a Darwinian explanation. Evolution can’t produce an irreducibly complex biological machine suddenly, all at once, because it’s much too complicated. The odds against that would be prohibitive. And you can’t produce it by successive, slight modification of a precursor system, because any precursor system would be missing a part and consequently couldn’t function. There would be no reason for it to exist. And natural selection chooses systems that ARE ALREADY WORKING.”

Half right - natural selection only gently selects against non functional systems. As something to lighten up this discussion, observe this link upon the supposedly 'irreducibly complex' mousetrap.

http://udel.edu/~mcdonald/mousetrap.html

The point is that IC (irreducible complexity) works on lack of imagination - we can't imagine how this happened, so it couldn't possibly have, which isn't scientific (or logical.) Furthermore, it amounts on creationism of the gaps - something is purported as irreducibly complex, it is found not to be, so the next example is proffered. The fact most biologists have better things to do than derive evolutionary structures for everything is taken as a victory for ID.

Which, as I'm on the subject, Behe's examples have been debunked. Blood clotting has been found to be reducibly complex (there is a simpler version present in Whales) and indeed it has been so rigourously put to the sword that Behe himself has admitted he was in error. The Flagellum has not been so crushingly refuted, but there is still an example of a simpler version of the 'base' of the flaggella used in other bacteria as a means of toxin transfer - in other words, at least part of the flagella is reducibly complex. The arguments have been slaughtered by far better qualified scientists than me (again, talk origins, or google give a nice selection.) I recommend either, or better introductory works to biology rather than relying on frankly wrong, one sided quasi-polemics by Strobel and company.

Meyer once again:

"This issue has caused ALL naturalistic accounts of the origin of life to break down, because it’s the critical and foundational question. If you can’t explain where information comes from, you haven’t explained life, because it’s the information that makes the molecules into something that actually functions. It is HIGHLY intuitive to think that there was Intelligence behind it."

(Sarcasm) which is why scientists of all fields agree with you, right?

I have handled the factually retarded creationist take on information theory and entropy (error in the quote, whatever theory of abiogensis is taken, it is universally considered RNA was first, and DNA came to prominence later.) But hey, what else is there to do on a saturday.

Once again, they are either deliberately decietful or just plain wrong about self ordering. With energy, you can gain information - just ask your computer. Nucleotides and other macromolecules can be formed spontaneously of random sequence of amino acids or nucleotides - the speil about A only attracting Gs as load of bulls, easily refuted by observing our own gene sequence. They are conflating between information as we commonly understand it and chemical information. Unsurprisingly, the most feckless rebuttal (Meyers chemically illiterate idea on nucleotides, which confuses ionic and covalent bonding, not to mention amino acids with nucleotide bases (!!! is this man a scientist?)) I was going to skim over this, but I'll see where else they are just flat out wrong:

"Even a simple protein molecule, or the gene to build that molecule, is so rich in information that the entire time since the Big Bang would not give you, as my colleague Bill Dembski likes to say, the probabilistic resources you would need to generate that molecule by chance."

Proteins are, once again not relevant, and as it happens, proteins (each loci having a choice of 26 ish residues) and RNA/DNA (4) are just slightly different in probability.

"The RNA molecule would need information to function, just as DNA would, and so we’re right back to the same problem of where the information came from."

Random chance - if you make at random thousands upon thousands of random length RNA molecules over many millions of years, you only need to hit one of the autocatalytic sequences to get self replication - that is your information (beyond the chemical sort which Meyer is continually equivocating to and from.)

"Also, for a single strand RNA to replicate, there must be an identical RNA molecule close by."

Just wrong. Really, thats all I have to say - in cells, you generate new lengths of RNA from a series of scattered RNA nucleotides which then bind via complimentary base pairing to the other nucleotide chain (be it RNA and DNA) and RNA polymerase runs along and connects the nucleotides. I will restate my mention of autocatalyitic RNA which should be falsification enough beyond Meyers crap science.


I note with glee we move onto a vaguely constructive argument (you might find it is the KALAM Cosmological argument, however.) Thankfully, I study (informally) philosophy of religion too.

"Premise 1 – Whatever BEGINS to exist has a cause
Premise 2 – The Universe had a beginning
Conclusion – The Universe has a cause"

The objection to 1 is a feckless strawman. Sadly, you don't know about modern science, because most cosmologists would object to premise 2. In a similar manner to your suggestion of God, it is considered that time 'started' at the big bang. (This was my point on language, of course.) So in a sense the universe didn't have a beginning, as it existed before the passage of time (note the language problems, once again.) It is why Kalam hasn't been used much, and why only really WLC attempts to argue it - Plantiga's ideas on reformed epistemology are the more common defence.

"“The cause of the universe is a personal agent who has freedom of will.”

Now, there are several objections that were raised, that Craig dismisses quite satisfactorily. If you have a specific one you want to discuss, we can most certainly do that."

Not according to most academic philosophers he doesn't. The best the cosmological argument can show that there is a cause to the universe we cannot explain - that cause doesn't even amount to a God, still less Theism, and certainly not necessarily the Christian take on that. Craigs later suggestion that 'God is mind' is pretty risable too, but nevermind.

I will conclude, as I have run out of a lot of energy.

You don't know much about science, Jason, and I know this because a knowledgable science student could rip the anti evolution camp to shreds (I know this because I am one, and I just did. ;)) The cosmological argument is interesting, but not that useful - natural theology has been out of fashion for well on two hundred years when Hume basically showed it not to work.

The problem isn't that you are ignorant, or you are stupid, it is because you have not studied the subject rigourously, and been taken in by people who are often wrong, or lying. If you want to understand how 'life becomes non life' and all the other subjects on your list, you need to study it. That is what scientists do - and it is the reason why such a tiny minority agree with what you or Strobel say.

It has taken me the better part of three hours to go through this (well, most of it, I gave up at the end) and I probably took you far longer to write. That time would have been far, far better spent on understanding the subject for yourself. The argument you are gradually trying to mount (that belief in evolutionary theory is worse off than belief in God /intelligent design) is factually unsound - and you aren't going to convince anyone who is scientifically literate. Evolution is the best fit explanation, and that really is all there is to it - if you strip away all the 'creationism/ID' of the gaps, the creationist movement has nothing to support itself. To quote a famous comment: "Science: It works, bitches."

I will deal with vaguely interesting philosophy at such a time you don't attempt to back it up with bad science.

Regards,

Gregory.

Jason said...

“So, lets start Wells and the Harvey/ Miller experiment. Let's start by pointing out this all a very elaborate red herring. It regards abiogenesis, not evolution per se.”

“So, I'll be a bit constructive now and talk about abiogenesis - even though, as I said, this isn't about evolution.”

I suppose this may be true. However, before we form extrapolations about evolutionary theory, shouldn’t we form plausible conclusions about how organisms can spontaneously come from lifeless matter? In some sense, wouldn’t what we conclude about abiogenesis have an impact on evolution – therefore, making Well’s suggestion not so unrelated?

“Firstly, RNA world tends to be favoured - Wells is also out of date, as we have discovered autocatalytic ribozymes (lengths of RNA which can speed up creation of more copies of themselves.)”

This appears to be in direct contradiction to Wells. For he states,

“But nobody could demonstrate how RNA could have formed before living cells were around to make it, or how it could have survived under the conditions on the early earth. You have to build straw man upon straw man to get to the point where RNA is a viable first biomolecule.”

Therefore, I would ask if you could cite some sort of credible information as to how RNA could have formed before living cells.

“At the end of the day, we don't know, but there certainly are means and mechanisms availible. There are other things which 'help' abiogenesis along, like lipids spontaneously forming a lipid bilayer, which is a basis of a modern cell, and so on, so on, and so forth”

First, please explain what “so on, so forth means.” Also, are these spontaneously forming lipid bilayer all that is required in order to create a cell? Wells stated, “The problem is, you can’t make a living cell.”

Can you show me who has demonstrated that they can create a cell and of course, how RNA could have formed before living cells?

“What about all the possible theories of climatic change etc which could start rapid speciation events? “

Is there a theory of climactic change that you know of that has been proven to start rapid speciation?

“Where is the mention of contempory examples like Gould's punctated equillibrium model?”

Meyer:

“Not even the punctuated equilibrium idea works, for it can’t account for the ‘top-down’ phenomenon. In fact, punctuated equilibrium predicts a bottom up pattern; it just asserts that the increments of evolutionary change would be larger.”

Meyer said: "WHERE DOES THE NEW INFORMATION COME FROM THAT’S NOT ATTRIBUTABLE TO DNA? How does hierarchical arrangements of cells, tissues, organs, and body plans develop?

“That is precisely the question ALL of developmental biology has to answer. Unfortunately for Meyer, it seems that it is likely this 'information' is encoded in DNA - hierarchical arrangements are suspected to be due to various factors which cause differentiation…”

I suppose that Meyer’s answer to this would be a Mind. I’ll elaborate on how this is falsifiable or and not an extrapolation from ignorance.

However, when you say “suspected” – exactly how conclusive is it, and could you provide information as to how it became such? Implicit in “suspected” is margin of doubt. Please also elaborate why there is doubt.

“I've quoted this bit, not only because it is a load of pseudo-scientific nonsense, but it allows me to explain exactly why ID and creationism cannot be considered 'valid alternatives.”

“First, lets start on the science. Contrary to Meyers bleating, the idea of major differences followed by smaller ones makes perfect sense - taxonomy relies upon this to date creature. A very simplistic reason is very simple creatures (unicellular, say) can diverge and only after a long series of divergences before forming a new (very large) group. An example is generally considered Eukaryota, which are thought to have diverged from prokaryota way back whence and true eukaryotes forming substantially later - the earlier steps in the time getting outcompeted and dying out as opposed to the later versions, and thus not spawning large phylogenic trees of their own.”

Okay, I don’t’ see how Intelligent Design isn’t a valid alternative from this, but maybe you will explain.

“This isn't scientific - how can we prove such a theory wrong? It isn't relevant, or falsifiable, or evidential, nor is it useful (how will ID explain how bacteria behave upon subjecting them to antibiotics?)”

I think when you consider Intelligent Design, you may imagine a Big Bearded Caucasian Ghost like figure sitting on a cloud somewhere that you cannot verify through science. However, I believe what they are trying to posit doesn’t go into such description – it may be just the observable entity we know as a “Mind.” This doesn’t seem contradictory to the evidence. Therefore, we move to the claim about it not being falsifiable.

Consider what Behe said about flagellum:

“To falsify that claim, all you would have to do would be to find one unintelligent process that could produce that system. On the other hand, Darwinists claim that SOME unintelligent process could produce the flagellum. To falsify that, you’d have to show that the system could not possibly have been created by any of a potentially infinite number of possible unintelligent processes. That’s impossible to do. So which claim is falsifiable?”

“ID by definiton doesn't have positive evidence in support - it a hypothesis beyond evidence.”

I think you may be missing an important factor in their argument. The fact is, we do have an observable entity that is nonphysical that can explain the origin of information – a mind. Of observable realities, can you posit a better explanation? Because we have experience that can create information and create irreducible complexity – a Mind – wouldn’t that be the natural extrapolation? If we reject the mind as an option, what are our reasons? Is it not an entity? What exactly are the rules?

You may call this example mundane; however it is the principle behind it that I ask you to refute. Consider what was suggested about Dinosaurs. When seeing dinosaur bones, wouldn’t you consider it as strong evidence for dinosaurs? You most likely have never spoken to one, felt one, or seen one. However, it appears that suggesting those bones were dinosaur bones seem to be the natural extrapolation from what you ALREADY KNOW.

Similarly, those who see information find that a natural extrapolation from what we already know is that information is caused by a Mind. Just as we do not have to encounter “dinosaurs” in order to make a justifiable extrapolation, why would we have to encounter “The Mind behind it all” in order for it be a natural extrapolation. Forget the details of what the parameters of this mind are, why can’t the proposition of "a mind" be a natural extrapolation? Once again, is it because it is not an entity we observe as real? As asked earlier, what are the rules?

“The evidence for this is profoundly strong, even if embryos are not photographic replicas of each other.”

Is the “evidence,” a mere observation of similarities? Or is there an explanation that has been PROVEN to account for the similarities? Also, does this still rule out the Mind as a natural extrapolation?

“finding one example and then using it disprove the rest of the (correct and valid) evidence of which the example was a part. In science, this would be censoriously bad conduct”

So you don’t think you do this at all? You don’t find theories that aren’t even conclusive to be “evidence” that “a Mind” is not an option?

“the theory of evolution is broadly accurate and makes predictions which are affirmed - this is good cause for assuming it be generally correct, and thus not discarded out of hand.”

So when accounting the evidence as a whole, we choose between 2 observations.

1) a theory that is “broadly” accurate that make predictions that provides good cause “assumptions” that declare it “generally” correct – therefore not discarded..

2)Something we can observe that has creative power that stands most consistent with what has been presented – A Mind

I’m not sure why attributing this to a Mind is still not the best possible solution.

“Once again, quoting from the ID stable - and again I need mention what a tiny minority they are - the equivocation between evolution and Big bang, etc. whilst humourous, is again deceiful - the theories are not related.”

It appears that a prevalent theme in your discussion is that the consensuses of scientists define “truth.” Now, I do admit this to be intuitive and will grant it on a fundamental level. However, can’t we also assume that some of the “breakthroughs” in science has been in the face of the consensus?

Regarding Irreducible Complexity:

“The point is that IC (irreducible complexity) works on lack of imagination. we can't imagine how this happened, so it couldn't possibly have, which isn't scientific (or logical.)”
I apologize, but I don’t see how this is “illogical.” As for scientific, isn’t it proposed that science doesn’t suggest to “solve everything” but only provide the best explanation? I don’t see why an observable entity such as, “A Mind,” can’t be posited as the best explanation based on the evidence.

“Furthermore, it amounts on creationism of the gaps - - something is purported as irreducibly complex”

Well what about attributing “evolutionary theory” to things that don’t compute – using a newly “modified” theory to prove the principles of the original theory? It appears that you are claiming the idea of a “Mind” as not falsifiable again. However, considering the discipline of science – would it be unreasonable to think that science can one day find unintelligent sources for information – thus, making “the Mind” falsifiable?

“The Flagellum has not been so crushingly refuted, but there is still an example of a simpler version of the 'base' of the flaggella used in other bacteria as a means of toxin transfer - in other words, at least part of the flagella is reducibly complex. The arguments have been slaughtered by far better qualified scientists than me (again, talk origins, or google give a nice selection.)”

Regarding “simpler” versions – The words of “Behe" concerning cilia:

“If you could point to a series of less complex structures that PROGRESS from one to the other in order to create the cilia I’ve described, then yes, that would refute me. But that isn’t the case. What the critics say is that you can take away one of the several microtubules and the cilium would still function. That’s fine. You still need all the basic components – microtubules, nexin, and dynein. Let me give you an analogy – Some rat traps have double springs to make them stronger. You can take away one spring and it would still work to a degree. In a sense the second spring is a redundant component. The cilium is the same way; it’s got some redundant components. You can take one of the microtubules away and it will still function, though maybe not as well. But evolution doesn’t start with completed trap or completed cilium and take parts away; it has to build things from the bottom. And all cilia have the three critical components that I’ve mentioned. There have been experiments where scientists have removed one of the three and the cilium doesn’t work. It’s broken – just like you’d expect it to be, since it’s an irreducibly complex machine.”

Now, if you suggest that there are experiments to prove otherwise, please cite them. Also, remember the words of Darwin:

“If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.”

First, don’t the cilia stand as something that couldn’t have possibly formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications? Second, are we ever willing to call something irreducibly complex?

The arguments have been slaughtered by far better qualified scientists than me “”

In all sincerity, would you please provide sources of this dramatic slaughtering - at least the names of people who have indisputably refuted it?

I just saw your statement to someone:

“Evolution will be disproven when the general ideas of the theory are proven to be false.”

Okay – what does irreducible complexity do to Darwin’s assessment – “…if any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down?”

Are we willing to consider irreducible complexity as a way to disprove his theory - or at least deem it highly unlikely?

Also you stated:

“In other words, it is useful, and gets results.”

Would this mean the part of the theory that seems to be suspect as a result of irreducible complexity should be still maintained along with the other “things that provide results?”

Meyer said:

"This issue has caused ALL naturalistic accounts of the origin of life to break down, because it’s the critical and foundational question. If you can’t explain where information comes from, you haven’t explained life, because it’s the information that makes the molecules into something that actually functions.”

I don’t think you have given an explanation as to how information that makes the molecules can be explained outside of a Mind.

“With energy, you can gain information - just ask your computer. Nucleotides and other macromolecules can be formed spontaneously of random sequence of amino acids or nucleotides - the speil about A only attracting Gs as load of bulls, easily refuted by observing our own gene sequence. They are conflating between information as we commonly understand it and chemical information.”

First, the computer is the result of intelligence; therefore your analogy would break down there. Nevertheless, why is it that Dean Kenyon repudiated the conclusions of his own book, saying,

“we have not the slightest chance of chemical evolutionary origin for even the simplest of cells,” and that intelligent design, “made a great deal of sense, as it very closely matched the multiple discoveries in molecular biology.”

“Random chance - if you make at random thousands upon thousands of random length RNA molecules over many millions of years, you only need to hit one of the autocatalytic sequences to get self replication - that is your information (beyond the chemical sort which Meyer is continually equivocating to and from.)”

Meyer said:

Virtually all of origin-of-life experts have utterly rejected the approach. Even so, the idea is still very much alive at the popular level. For many college students who speculate about these things, chance is still the hero. They think if you let amino acids randomly interact over millions of years, life is somehow going to emerge. But there is no merit to this.

Can you give me names of origin-of-life experts who do not reject the random chance approach? What is the probability of something like this happening in order to claim it as the best possible solution?

Consider Meyer:

“Organisms reproduce, their offspring have variations, the ones that are better adapted to their environment survive better, and so those adaptations are preserved and passed on to the next generation. However, to have reproduction, there has to be cell division. And that PRESUPPOSES THE EXISTENCE OF INFORMATION-RICH DNA and proteins. But that’s the problem – those are the very things they’re trying to explain!”

Also:

“The RNA molecule would need information to function, just as DNA would, and so we’re right back to the same problem of where the information came from.

Is there a way we can account for the variability, irregularity, and unpredictability, in any conclusive way without a Mind – negating this observable entity as the best possible solution?

Also, since I’ve so often been accused of creating “straw men” – is there a way you can provide an explanation for this without construction your own “straw men?”


Meyer said:

“Naturalism cannot answer the fundamental problem of how to get from matter and energy to biological function without the infusion of information from an intelligence.”

Is there an explanation you would like to propose?

Regarding Kalam Cosmological Argument:

“Sadly, you don't know about modern science, because most cosmologists would object to premise 2.”

Please enlighten me. Would you suggest Inflation Theory? Vacuum Fluctuation? The Oscillating Model?

“In a similar manner to your suggestion of God, it is considered that time 'started' at the big bang.”

I have read your statements about how familiar you are in science and philosophy. However, it appears that there is a misunderstanding. First, “what started time” is still unanswered. Second, time can be defined as a non-spatial continuum whereby we have irreversible successive events. Therefore, to posit that something “caused” time, would mean that it was “timeless” – not having anteceding successive events – in other words, uncaused – always there. I don’t see how any extrapolation you make would be more consistent than the suggestion that an Uncaused, Timeless, Mind was the Cause.

“There are no creationist theories that come close to being as well in agreement with evidence as modern evolutionary theory is, and ideas of ID etc. simply aren't scientific theories.”

I understand the conclusion – but don’t see the premise as to why an observable entity, such as “a Mind,” can’t be considered.

“The best the cosmological argument can show that there is a cause to the universe we cannot explain - that cause doesn't even amount to a God.”

Please state what you deem as “the best cosmological argument” and how it rules out the idea of “a Mind.”

Behe:

“They're saying, ‘We have no idea how this could have happened, but let’s assume evolution somehow did it.’ You’ve heard the God-of-all-gaps – inserting God when you don’t have another explanation? Well this is evolution-of-the-gaps. Some scientists merely insert evolution when they don’t understand something.”

Also Meyer:

“This is NOT an argument from ignorance. We’re not inferring design just because the naturalistic evolutionary theories all fail to explain information. We infer design because all those theories fail AND WE KNOW of another causal entity that is capable of producing information – namely, INTELLIGENCE.”

Meyer:

“Based on evidence, scientists assess each hypothesis on the basis of its ability to explain the evidence at hand. Typically the criterion is whether the explanation has causal power, which is the ability to produce the effect in question. In this case, the effect in question is information. On the basis of what we DO KNOW, only one causal power can produce the informational coding necessary – A MIND.”

All of us have the same evidence to observe. Regarding cosmology and information – we know that the Cause of the Big Bang was Uncaused, Timeless and Immaterial. Our observations with information allow us to make certain suggestions as well. However, when assessing what we do observe in science in light of what we have observed in reality – I still don’t see why the proposition of an Immaterial, Uncaused, and Timeless Mind cannot be the best possible explanation.

Jason said...

Also,

I apologize if I won't be able to respond again until Thursday, though I'm sure I'll concede again.

I look forward to your response.

Anonymous said...

“I suppose this may be true. However, before we form extrapolations about evolutionary theory, shouldn’t we form plausible conclusions about how organisms can spontaneously come from lifeless matter? In some sense, wouldn’t what we conclude about abiogenesis have an impact on evolution – therefore, making Well’s suggestion not so unrelated?”

The short answer is no. Evolutionary theory assumes there are replicators, and doesn’t need to postulate anything further. If we can form good conclusions about this all well and good, but the fact is the science on this isn’t well understood, as of yet. The reason creationists like Abiogenesis is it isn’t on as firm ground as evolution proper, and they hope people will confuse the two (you’ll have to excuse my cynicism, I’ve been debating this too long to have much love for most creationists.) Conclusions about abiogenesis cannot have any foreseeable impact upon evolution I can think of.



”Therefore, I would ask if you could cite some sort of credible information as to how RNA could have formed before living cells.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_world_hypothesis

RNA is ‘merely’ a chain of ribonucleic acids. There are problems as to why this formed, but there is extensive evidence to suggest there is, at least an RNA world before that of cells (even if this was the result of another, prior phase, such as PNA) simply because the DNA/RNA/Protein chemistry seems to suggest it, as well as the states RNA can form, and not least the properties of self splicing introns, autocatalysing RNA and other things which seem like artefacts, etc.

http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/RNA_world


”First, please explain what “so on, so forth means.” Also, are these spontaneously forming lipid bilayer all that is required in order to create a cell? Wells stated, “The problem is, you can’t make a living cell.

Can you show me who has demonstrated that they can create a cell and of course, how RNA could have formed before living cells?”

The so on and so forth refers to other things which, due to their existence in modern cellular life, were suspected to be the result of certain factors originally (homochirality in amino acids is thought to be because L-serine forms much stronger bonds than R-serine, and thus is preserved, although there are other theories for this, and the homochirality in sugars.) Abiogenesis is still a relatively young field, and considering these processes are considered to have taken millions of years in conditions we don’t know (where did the first act take place? Hydrothermal vents?) It is not surprising there is a lot of controversy. Wells is wrong – we can make a living cell, we just can’t make one from scratch, the problem is it is suspected that the ‘first cells’ don’t exist anymore, being extinct, and so currently people are working towards it either by building up, or by getting primitive bacteria and rendering them down further. It has been suggested that the first protocell was just a self replicating ribozyme in a lipid bilayer – or it might not, evidence is hardly conclusive. This is quite a good overview – albeit one I fear will be beyond anyone without decent knowledge of chemistry and biology (but you asked for it ;)):

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/originoflife.html

It does, however, make a mockery of people who claim such a feat must be entirely impossible (of which Well’s is one.) There are a plethora of ways things could happen – the fact we don’t know which doesn’t mean it must be none of them.


“Is there a theory of climactic change that you know of that has been proven to start rapid speciation?”

You don’t prove very much in science – some speciation is though to occur due to environmental stress, of which climatic change could be an example of. To my knowledge, of the examples of speciation which we have directly observed, there isn’t one due to climate alone (then again, speciation isn’t often due to one factor.)

My point was that various ideas have been considered as to the cause of the Cambrian explosion – one of them is climate change meaning that conditions are much more favourable to life, opening up more niches for life to evolve into etc. (third bullet point on point 5 of the following link.)

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC300.html


”However, when you say “suspected” – exactly how conclusive is it, and could you provide information as to how it became such? Implicit in “suspected” is margin of doubt. Please also elaborate why there is doubt.”

We know of genes that affect body plans, we know of genes which have an effect on various differentiation mechanisms – we do not know all of them yet, however. It makes a mockery out of Meyer, but he is frankly enough of a joke already. The first covers cellular differentiation, and the second morphogenesis (the formation of organs, etc.) Again, I fear you may not be able to understand either (part of the reason I was hesitant to provide too many technical weblinks) but a basic understanding will help understand way Meyer is drastically wrong – supposedly insoluble problems are being, well, solved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_differentiation

(Gregory’s idiot version: Cells become differentiated (specialised) through an internally regulated process which controls the expression of certain genes – we have evidence of this, and in the case of plants we can go backwards relatively easily in the lab.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morphogenesis

(Gregory’s idiot version: We have a couple of mechanisms of like cells joining together to form tissue (through intercellular matrixes, direct membrane associations, or thermodynamic principles) and further we have evidence of various protein and mRNA gradients giving a body plan, in the case of fruitflies.)

(The developmental biology link is also worth a look, but might take up an extensive amount of your time.)



”Okay, I don’t’ see how Intelligent Design isn’t a valid alternative from this, but maybe you will explain.”

Intelligent design is a valid alternative to anything, as I’ll cover more seriously later.

(Behe) “To falsify that claim, all you would have to do would be to find one unintelligent process that could produce that system. On the other hand, Darwinists claim that SOME unintelligent process could produce the flagellum. To falsify that, you’d have to show that the system could not possibly have been created by any of a potentially infinite number of possible unintelligent processes. That’s impossible to do. So which claim is falsifiable?”

Selective fallacy – the fact you cannot falsify one part of the theory doesn’t mean that theory, in its entirety is unfalsifiable. To falsify IC indeed is quite ‘easy’ as Behe describes (and has been done, pretty much), to falsify evolution you merely need to show its assumptions to be wrong (unfit organisms being opposed to selective ones) show a fallacy in the argument, show the evidence doesn’t stack up, or attempt something like IC – because the last method is very hard to accomplish doesn’t mean the other ones are impossible too. Further ID (not IC) is utterly unfalsifiable, because it can be any explanation which is offered, or the explanation where one hasn’t found a scientific one. You can’t prove it wrong, as this Mind could create whatever it wants however it pleases and in whatever way.


“I think you may be missing an important factor in their argument. The fact is, we do have an observable entity that is nonphysical that can explain the origin of information – a mind. Of observable realities, can you posit a better explanation? Because we have experience that can create information and create irreducible complexity – a Mind – wouldn’t that be the natural extrapolation? If we reject the mind as an option, what are our reasons? Is it not an entity? What exactly are the rules?”

Except all the minds we observe are, at the very, very least, superveniant upon physical facts – in other words, they aren’t non-physical. We have experience of things which create information – natural processes (for information, read lack of entropy, which is as physical as it gets, remember?) We don’t have anything which produces IC, including minds, we just have things we don’t know very much about (if you think evolution is a dubious aspect of biology, wait to you see some neuroscience.) The rules of science are based on theories making testable predictions that can be proven wrong, then adapting the theory or making a new one and starting again. With ID we create a theory which we feel is right (based on some pretty dodgy phil of mind, neuroscience, phil of religion, etc.) Find some bits of life which current theory cannot explain as well as we would like, discover our explanation fits (by virtue of ‘explaining’ nothing at all) and it comes with a ready made cocoon of being impossible to falsify, and then use it. It is hard to find rules of science which it doesn’t break. Most evolutionists are quite happy to admit evidence isn’t cast iron, or that they are unsure – that doesn’t give pseudoscience an excuse to leap into the breach as the ‘alternative’ explanation.


”Similarly, those who see information find that a natural extrapolation from what we already know is that information is caused by a Mind. Just as we do not have to encounter “dinosaurs” in order to make a justifiable extrapolation, why would we have to encounter “The Mind behind it all” in order for it be a natural extrapolation. Forget the details of what the parameters of this mind are, why can’t the proposition of "a mind" be a natural extrapolation? Once again, is it because it is not an entity we observe as real? As asked earlier, what are the rules?”

You don’t understand what information is often meant to mean in a scientific context. Information can be thought of as lack of entropy, which is a thermodynamic state function and about as mindless as you can get. Once again, you can propose whatever you damn well like, but the crux is how is such a theory supported? Your explanation would hold little truck with anyone with a basic grounding of biology (or maths, chemistry, etc.) – because ‘information’ simply need not only be the result of minds. At the first hurdle, the theory fails. It CAN be an explanation – as I said before, it can be an explanation for anything, but you need to show why it is a better explanation than the alternatives – and showing gaps in evolution which you don’t have to answer isn’t an answer any more than pretending there isn’t a question. It is a useless full stop to scientific enquiry (to any question about how something developed or occurred, the answer must be ‘the mind designed it’ – great, but as I said before, how do I examine behaviour of bacteria under antibiotic behaviour in such a framework?), and an erroneous one. To quote Bohr, I think it was, ID isn’t even wrong, because it just isn’t science.


”Is the “evidence,” a mere observation of similarities? Or is there an explanation that has been PROVEN to account for the similarities? Also, does this still rule out the Mind as a natural extrapolation?”

Again, you just don’t understand how science works, and I confess of tiring to your compound misunderstandings (read the fuggin’ science textbook, etc. ;)). You observe first, form explanations later, so indeed, you ‘observe’ substantial similarities (embryos progressing through phylogeny, etc) and then find that your theory (evolution) can account for these similarities, and thus strengthens the theory.

As I’ve already said, nothing can possibly rule out the mind as the explanation (besides bad philosophy of mind, bad neuroscience, bad information theory, healthy equivocation on the word ‘information’ and bad philosophy of science, of course.)



”So you don’t think you do this at all? You don’t find theories that aren’t even conclusive to be “evidence” that “a Mind” is not an option?”

See above – a mind is always an option, just like things happening ‘just because they do.’ The point is neither is good science, nor is it useful – how can we use these facts to further technology, and so forth?



”So when accounting the evidence as a whole, we choose between 2 observations.

1) a theory that is “broadly” accurate that make predictions that provides good cause “assumptions” that declare it “generally” correct – therefore not discarded..

2)Something we can observe that has creative power that stands most consistent with what has been presented – A Mind

I’m not sure why attributing this to a Mind is still not the best possible solution.”

Allow me to add 3, 4, 5 up to infinity.

3) Something did it like this, and there is no need for further explanation. (But it so happens the evidence looks quite like what would be predicted by another theory not relying on this something.)

4) Something else did it like this, and there is no need for further explanation. (But it so happens the evidence looks quite like what would be predicted by another theory not relying on this something.)

5) Another thing did it like this, and there is no need for further explanation. (But it so happens the evidence looks quite like what would be predicted by another theory not relying on this something.)

Etc.

As I said, again and again, it is bad science – not to mention the conception of minds is pretty dubious too (whence precisely are these disembodied intellects we all observe?)


”I apologize, but I don’t see how this is “illogical.” As for scientific, isn’t it proposed that science doesn’t suggest to “solve everything” but only provide the best explanation? I don’t see why an observable entity such as, “A Mind,” can’t be posited as the best explanation based on the evidence.”

See above (and above that.) Making something up can be the best possible explanation precisely because it doesn’t explain anything at all. A mind did it like this, but WHY did it do it like this? No need to explain that part? Then why not “This all just happened?” It isn’t a claim based on evidence rather than a claim regardless of evidence (how science, and most philosophers define truth is interesting, and arguably certainly not intuitive.) You may as well just say ‘don’t worry about the why, but this is the reason.’


”Well what about attributing “evolutionary theory” to things that don’t compute – using a newly “modified” theory to prove the principles of the original theory? It appears that you are claiming the idea of a “Mind” as not falsifiable again. However, considering the discipline of science – would it be unreasonable to think that science can one day find unintelligent sources for information – thus, making “the Mind” falsifiable?”

Science already can, and if that is what allegedly falsifies your theory, then it is already falsified. In short, if you drop entropy, you increase information – and whilst strictly entropy of the universe must increase, in certain parts of it entropy of the system can drop spontaneously – and thus we have information. Your entire theory is based on not understanding what information can mean – whatever you are thinking of reduces to a tautology as it defines information in such a way that it is intimately linked to intelligent beings understanding and transferring it as opposed to the entirely unintelligent, purely physical (and manifestly often observed) examples of organization of a system increasing, which is a gain in information of said system. If you don’t believe me, study some thermodynamics or chemistry.


”First, don’t the cilia stand as something that couldn’t have possibly formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications? Second, are we ever willing to call something irreducibly complex?”

No and no, respectively, Behe nailed it on the head – showing something as IC is almost entirely impossible, and open to ready falsification – it is quite a good scientific theory in that regard, but means that we can never say with certainty something is irreducibly complex, just that we haven’t seen a means for it to be reducibly complex (see indeterminism for that problem.)


”In all sincerity, would you please provide sources of this dramatic slaughtering - at least the names of people who have indisputably refuted it?”

With glee, here is a not exhaustive list of all the different ways scientists have laid into Behes ‘argument’ (I forgot to mention that evolution can produce IC systems anyway, which should be the final nail in the coffin):

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/behe/icsic.html
(Turns out the compliment system is, indeed, reducible.)

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/22794;jsessionid=aaaar1GYzXiuAC?fulltext=true
(The review in American scientist – it wasn’t very flattering.)

http://bostonreview.net/BR21.6/orr.html
(another review, this time by Orr, a noted biologist – and one Behe shamelessly quote mined too.)

http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/icdmyst/ICDmyst.html

(Showing the central argument to be fallacious – IC does not mean there is not an evolutionary explanation.)

http://www.talkdesign.org/faqs/flagellum.html

(Another biologist showing a mechanism for evolution of the flagella – which, unlike Behe’s work, has been cited in a journal. It is however not exactly light reading, or easy to understand for those without an understanding of the field – going straight to the conclusions is the best bet.)

It is also quite neatly summed up in the Wikipedia page on ID, as well as just a general browse around talk origins – there is a reason scientists don’t take ID seriously besides a Darwinist conspiracy.


”Okay – what does irreducible complexity do to Darwin’s assessment – “…if any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down?”

Are we willing to consider irreducible complexity as a way to disprove his theory - or at least deem it highly unlikely?”


Very little, as the links above show, even if IC examples could be found (which would be very difficult) the fact they are IC does not preclude them having evolved as per the Darwin quote.

You can guess my response to the second paragraph. But to paraphrase, it doesn’t work, and even if it did, it doesn’t disprove Darwin, let alone modern science on the matter.


”Would this mean the part of the theory that seems to be suspect as a result of irreducible complexity should be still maintained along with the other “things that provide results?””

IC shows nothing, so your question is voided (see above.) Also, if it isn’t true, it would be quite unlikely to get useful results – the fact it does is further evidence for the theory.


”I don’t think you have given an explanation as to how information that makes the molecules can be explained outside of a Mind.”

LEARN SOME CHEMISTRY! Information is an abstraction beyond chemical fact which we use to describe things like organization, lack of entropy etc. – it is not a be all and end all. You’re criticism is utterly feckless because you are ignorant of how information can form – it is just a drop in entropy, and that is it. The reason creationists love information theory is precisely because they can, frankly, concoct a load of sensible seeming bullshit without having to provide any chemistry or science to back it up. It is really, REALLY starting to get on my goat that I have to waste so much time due to your misunderstanding. It would be better for both of us that instead of you being a mouthpiece for ID, that you actually read up on and understand the fields for yourself. I am beginning to see why so many scientists just ignore ID and carry on regardless – it is half the reason it has done so well.

If we polymerize ethene, where is the information? As it so happens, information is increasing due to the large number of molecules being reduced to a smaller number of macromolecules – entropy of the system is reducing. However, such a process releases energy, and thus this energy increases entropy elsewhere – its all elementary thermodynamics, but you couch it in information theoretic terms if you want. Forming big molecules isn’t anything special. And forming big molecules which do certain things doesn’t require a mind – your body does it all the damn time. Your body directing the process to form these molecules, ultimately, is DNA - the reason it has precise information is through millions of years of development and life exporting entropy out of its own system to elsewhere.


”First, the computer is the result of intelligence; therefore your analogy would break down there. Nevertheless, why is it that Dean Kenyon repudiated the conclusions of his own book, saying,”

Nope, you misunderstand. You memory is disorganized, and upon the addition of power becomes organized – spontaneous increase in information. I could say just observe a healthy proportion of exothermic chemical processes. The reason for Kenyon disagreeing isn’t important, because he is wrong and what he says isn’t law. Try quoting the huge number of scientists who aren’t paid up members of the creationist/ID lobby and see what they have to say. I repeat what I must have said three or four times about this being a manufactured controversy.



”Can you give me names of origin-of-life experts who do not reject the random chance approach? What is the probability of something like this happening in order to claim it as the best possible solution?”

I’m talking about nucleotides, not amino acids, which is what Meyer is talking about (considering the RNA world ideas, there is certainly a sizable proportion of experts who support such a theory.) As to probability, I don’t know – but we have discovered (and I think synthesised) autocatalytic RNA sequences – the former example shows that they do (or did) exist in nature at some time. Biology is seldom a science of exact numerical probability, but I consider it to have a greater chance than the opposing theories (metabolism first, panspermia) so I hesitantly consider it the best fit solution. I needn’t point out that ID needn’t worry about this – it is the best solution come what way, as it has all the answers, but not asking any questions.


”Is there a way we can account for the variability, irregularity, and unpredictability, in any conclusive way without a Mind – negating this observable entity as the best possible solution?

Also, since I’ve so often been accused of creating “straw men” – is there a way you can provide an explanation for this without construction your own “straw men?””

See above, frankly, I am not even going to attempt to defend the “information” of genetics until you gain the slightest inkling of what information means – it is being used by Meyer as an excuse to make up what the damn hell he likes. Information forms spontaneously, as Earth ain’t a closed system. If you don’t believe me, check out reproduction, or just simple replication. That is, at the end of the day, the only explanation needed for information being formed – a ‘mind’ is an entirely unnecessary addition.


”Is there an explanation you would like to propose?”

Yes, it is called science. Try learning some of it, as opposed to spouting forth the champions of the ID movement – I am increasingly feeling that I am not so much debating as teaching you, and you are intelligent enough to do that yourself, and I have better things to do with my time.


”I have read your statements about how familiar you are in science and philosophy. However, it appears that there is a misunderstanding. First, “what started time” is still unanswered. Second, time can be defined as a non-spatial continuum whereby we have irreversible successive events. Therefore, to posit that something “caused” time, would mean that it was “timeless” – not having anteceding successive events – in other words, uncaused – always there. I don’t see how any extrapolation you make would be more consistent than the suggestion that an Uncaused, Timeless, Mind was the Cause.”

What started time is about as sensible a question as ‘what were you thinking before you were born’ our verbs are by their nature temporal, and thus ‘started’ implies time already passing, the same is arguably the same for caused, as causal relationships generally (if not necessarily) require one thing happening before another.

Your reasoning is flawed, something causing time could indeed be timeless, but it needn’t be eternal. Thus the timeless universe could ‘inflate’ (inflationary cosmology seems to be the ‘majority’ view, although I would hardly consider myself knowledgeable enough to say much about opposing theories) into the one which is ‘timed’ this ‘event’ might be uncaused, but it doesn’t mean this ‘timeless’ universe persists to the present day. Again, uncaused, timeless minds are not scientific hypothesis. Part of the reason the Cosmological argument is on such shaky ground is that are language is manifestly ill equipped to deal with circumstances where time doesn’t exist.


”I understand the conclusion – but don’t see the premise as to why an observable entity, such as “a Mind,” can’t be considered.”

It can, but it is of no use to scientific enquiry – as I have said, you may as well just say ‘it happened.’



”Please state what you deem as “the best cosmological argument” and how it rules out the idea of “a Mind.””

Reread what I said (the best THE cosmological argument can do, not the best cosmological argument.) Also, generally it is considered necessary for someone supporting an idea to give evidence for it, rather than the interlocutor having to find reasons against such a notion.


”All of us have the same evidence to observe. Regarding cosmology and information – we know that the Cause of the Big Bang was Uncaused, Timeless and Immaterial. Our observations with information allow us to make certain suggestions as well. However, when assessing what we do observe in science in light of what we have observed in reality – I still don’t see why the proposition of an Immaterial, Uncaused, and Timeless Mind cannot be the best possible explanation.”

No, we know very little about the cause of the big bang, or whether it is even sensible to call it a cause. It certainly need not be timeless, and probably not immaterial either (the universe could form in such a way as to spontaneously ‘turn’ from its timeless state to the big bang etc. – it is a necessary entity.) We evidently don’t all observe the same things – you are relying on profoundly biased scientists using erroneous arguments and without a proper understanding of the theories these people are arguing against, or the balance of evidence. I have studied most of this to at least some degree, so I know what I am talking about – and I can thus argue against them, and I have for the most part without sources, rather than relying on them for my argument.

The last sentence should be example enough of how little you have shown. The reason why it isn’t a good explanation is because it doesn’t explain much – it explains why things are, but not how they were, how they changed, how we can take advantage of it, and so on. I don’t see a reason for such a belief to be believed in – Russell’s teapot aside, the fact it could be the best explanation doesn’t mean it is, and the arguments you have thus far presented will convince absolutely no one whom is confident of their science. Further, I don’t think such epistemic theories (like Plantiga’s) which assert such principles needn’t be supported are too easily permissible to absurdity to respect – God (because, let us be honest, it is he you are supporting with your talk of a timeless, uncaused, etc. ‘Mind’.) Just doesn’t measure up, as far as I am concerned, and needless to say, you’re arguments don’t convince me in the slightest.

Ultimately, the general response of most scientists has been to the creation/evolution ‘controversy’ is to simply ignore it – if people want to believe a load of rubbish, that is up to them. I think such an approach is short sighted, simply because as has been shown, creationists are happy to mislead and basically trick people into bad science. To understand why they are wrong, why they are being disingenuous, and sometimes, why they are lying requires often extensive knowledge about science, whereas finding some arguments against evolution just requires picking up a copy of Strobel, Behe, or Demski. Ultimately, if you are unwilling to make that effort (which is substantial), there is only so much my arguments can do to convince you (everyone else is a different matter.) There is a reason why creationism is under-represented amongst the scientifically literate, and it isn’t conspiracy, it is knowledge.

Ultimately, if you aren’t, it will be me who will concede – it just won’t be a constructive use of me time. Continuing to replicate the words of Behe, Demski, Meyer, et al. will similarly help you achieve little – they might be good for high-fives with fellow Christians who deny evolution, but they do a crushing disservice to Christians in science, as well as the faith such an argument engenders is faint, transitory, and open to the vagaries of modern discovery. It won’t convince any scientifically literate Atheist or Agnostic (which seems to be most of the ones I have met), and outside of the USA, clinging to such outmoded, readily debunked, pretty much only American political phenomenon gives the impression that you are a fool. There are richer (and more interesting) pickings elsewhere in human understanding.

Regards,

Gregory.

Anonymous said...

"Nope, you misunderstand. You memory is disorganized, and upon the addition of power becomes organized – spontaneous increase in information."

You're memory is not disorganized inside a computer. It is a boot loader that acquires its components from non-volatile memory. The boot loader essentially loads the OS in stages using smaller programs until all the components are present for the OS to operate.

I'm freakin tired of explaining this to you computer illiterate trolls. Pick up a book and educate yourself. It is ignorant to say the least.

BigTex71 said...

"You're memory is not disorganized inside a computer. It is a boot loader that acquires its components from non-volatile memory. The boot loader essentially loads the OS in stages using smaller programs until all the components are present for the OS to operate.

I'm freakin tired of explaining this to you computer illiterate trolls. Pick up a book and educate yourself. It is ignorant to say the least."

I believe he was not talking about a computer. He was talking about 'your' (as in a human) memory. How does the way memory of a computer operate fit into this discussion at all?

Anonymous said...

"truth" is just trolling and not adding anything to the discussion(s)

ignore him :D

Anonymous said...

Gregory wrote:

"Once again, they are either deliberately decietful or just plain wrong about self ordering. With energy, you can gain information - just ask your computer"

It was about memory in the computer and not human memory. I didn't mean to attack your hero there guys. I was just clarifying something.

Unless Gregory was referring to the electrical process in which the various hardware components are integrated (AND gates, OR gates, Operational Amplifiers and etc) in order that the bits and bytes are read from the hard drive via the I/O devices.

Maybe he meant something else, but it wasn't clear from what he wrote.

Either way...It was meant to be informative.

Anonymous said...

in your first quote he said: "you(r) memory" - not talking about computer memory in that paragraph

your second quote has got nothing to do with your first quote

weird

thank you for trying to be informative ... :p

Anonymous said...

The first time Gregory wrote he said:

"With energy, you can gain information - just ask your computer."

This is a clear reference to a computer.

Jason responds to this with

"First, the computer is the result of intelligence; therefore your analogy would break down there."

Gregory responds with:

"You memory is disorganized, and upon the addition of power becomes organized – spontaneous increase in information."

Now he uses the term addition of power, like a switch is turned on. Clearly this is about memory in a computer

Thanks for trying though :)

Anonymous said...

fair enough

hard to keep track with these long posts :)

truth is still missing the point = perhaps gregory shouldn't have used the term "disorganized" but I am sure gregory can explain better what he meant = a switched off computer has no memory (RAM). (the cash is cleared, obviously the physical modules still exist) [disorganized state?] When switched on, this memory becomes available [organized state ?]

You're memory is not disorganized inside a computer. It is a boot loader that acquires its components from non-volatile memory. The boot loader essentially loads the OS in stages using smaller programs until all the components are present for the OS to operate.

this is irrelevant but sure sounds like a process where "organized" is the end result

tbh these long posts need to be focussed as nothing gets addressed to anyone's satisfaction

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

fair enough

perhaps thats what he meant....

Anonymous said...

jason

you keep on quoting a handful of scientists who in the face of all evidence hold that evolution is unacceptable

most honest scientists accept evolution and try to understand how it works

Behe and co are much more interested in the waves they create than actual science

on the other hand if irrefutable proof would appear tomorrow that evolution is wrong, scientists would change their minds [that's what is great about science and what sucks about creationism]

this would still not prove the existence of god

Anonymous said...

Ghost is right about what I meant with my computer analogy. Of course it could be wrong - I'm a bit better at biology than computers..

BigTex71 said...

I guess y'all scared him off. :)

I decided to finally start my own blog. It's not much, but feel free to stop by.

Anonymous said...

and where is this if I may inquire bigtex?

BigTex71 said...

My blog is here: http://bigtexblog.blogspot.com/

It's not much... I'm new at this blogging stuff.